Great Adventure Outpost
Industry => Miscellaneous Discussions => Topic started by: Millennium Force 44 on March 27, 2011, 06:20:42 PM
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Just found this interesting blog about Drachen Fire and how Arrow was given B&M's plans for a multi-looper which they used to come up with such a unique coaster.
http://www.coaster-net.com/blogs/161-let-s-look-a-drachen-in-the-mouth/ (http://www.coaster-net.com/blogs/161-let-s-look-a-drachen-in-the-mouth/)
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That was actually a really good read. Thanks for sharing.
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I remember that ride standing there when I went to BGW for the first time. They had a nice for sale sign on the support where the train passed under it and in my four year old head i thought "WOW! that would look nice in my backyard!" When they finally reopened that area for their concerts I noticed a whole lot of things about drachen fire and BBW. BBW's turnaround after its first drop went right up next to the pathway to drachen fire and back in where drachen fire was you had a very nice view of the middle section of BBW, even getting a look at the MCBR and the second lift hill. You can even get a nice view of the old footers for BBW back there, too. Now drachen fire was something special to me. When the area was opened up for the summer concerts I noticed that the entire station was still sitting there, the loading station, the maintenance bay, even the generator hidden under the loading station! Busch also left a lot of the footers for the supports there in the area. When you're riding the train you can see some of the footers where the wraparound cork was and while I was watching one of the concerts I was actually sitting on one of footers to what I believe was the cutback, i really don't know. But while I was watching the concert I was really thinking if busch had any plans to rebuild over drachen fire's plot of land and what they would do with BBW's station and all that. Then we all found out about Busch Garden's plans for a multi-launch coaster and all the rumors that have swirled around with its layout and "gigantic warehouse."
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Yeah I thought it was a good read too! B-mac, those are some great memories. Drachen Fire still amazes me, I wish I could ride it!
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That article was amazing. It kind of sounds like Viper...but better. LOL.
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While I've known about the alleged B&M connection for about 10 years, this article seams more like an enthusiast trying to come up with an explanation for every detail rather than reporting actual facts.
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What an interesting coaster. I never really knew anything about it before today. I just assumed it was like a Gasm, viper, or shockwave. Very interesting stuff. Coasters like this intrigue me, especially once they become extinct.
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Question: they went with arrow for this because B&M could only do 1 coaster at the time... then why is it drachen fire opened in 1992, and kumba in 93. Am I missing something. Is it that they wanted then for 93 and B&M could only do 1 for 93 then they asked arrow and they said hey we can do it for 92.
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Don't know. But the first Batman Invert and their third standup (Vortex at Carowinds) opened in '92 as well. Perhaps it had nothing to do with Kumba.
It's even more reason why this reads more like enthusiast speculation than fact.
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meh, either way I thought it was a good read and it started a good conversation!
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who liked this ride of people who have been on it?
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I haven't been on it, and from the people I've met in BGW there are very few people who've been on it. Matt's been riding BBW for ages before it closed, maybe he's been on it lol.
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Unfortunately, no, this Matt did not get to ride BBW for ages before it closed. My first visit to WIlliamsburg, VA was in 2006. :-/ BUT, I had been in love with that ride since I saw it in Popular Mechanics magazine 20 years previously. It's sad in all my travels from 1989 to present, I didn't get to that park until near the end of that ride's life. :-/
I was always fascinated by Drachen Fire from the moment it was leaked to ACE News. The artist rendering was out of this world different from any previous Arrow looper. Then I remember watching it on the Entertainment Tonight coaster segment the following summer (along with the first B&M invert, Batman, and several others. The Drachen Fire segment was sound-tracked with Van Halen's "Mine All Mine", which made it extra cool for me. And another VH tune "Runaround" was used during a silly carousel sequence. In the ET footage, you could see the riders getting shaken up pretty good, kinda like Alvey on theat press day i305 footage last year.
The one thing that I really have a problem with in that article, which makes me doubt other stuff, is that part about Arrow not being able to do a giant vertical loop around the lift hill, because they only make one loop and thus aren't up to engineering anything new. If this is true, it's really sad, but it sure seems like a ridiculous cop-out to me. And then the whole fact about B&M's heartline-designed layout wouldn't work for Arrow. It even says in the article that Arrow had to compress the layout into a smaller footprint after their first attempt. Therefore they weren't locked in to anything B&M designed. They could easily reshape the elements to work better with their design style. It just doesn't add up.
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I bet wow`s tapped that.
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I missed riding it by something like 4 days :(. I even have video footage and photos of the ride area from the train from when I was there.
Matt, to the best of my knowledge, that loop comment is accurate. The only other "different" loop they did was on Tennessee Tornado @ Dollywood. But what do I know LOL
Looking back at all of the various arrow rides, X seems to be the only other oddball which is for obvious reasons.
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I know it's accurate from the perspective of Arrow never made a different loop until the next generation Tennessee Tornado. But the article claims Arrow *couldn't* make the loop that B&M allegedly envisioned around the lift hill. That assumes that Arrow was actually asked to do the loop and that they did in fact take cues from the alleged B&M concept. If you take the B&M involvement part for fact, then yes, it's easy to make up excuses for why Arrow messed up everything else, but I have yet to have seen anything proven to be fact about B&M's involvement. The same ride could have easily been conceived entirely by Arrow as they were starting to head in new directions with their twisting of track. Although it has many similarities to Kumba, there's nothing about the layout that proves it was influenced by B&M's input. It all sounds like enthusiast urban legend to me. And I have been wondering this myself for quite some time. I'd really like to see someone with proof and industry backing to prove or debunk this "legend".
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I completely understand what you are saying Matt and see both sides of this mystery. I just think the way the author went through each element comparing the alleged B&M layout to Arrow's "solution" for it was extremely clever if it is in fact made up.
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here is a great tribute to Big Bad Wolf while we are on the discussion of defunct/BBW coasters.
http://vimeo.com/8855401 (http://vimeo.com/8855401)
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I have to say I was actually able to ride this. When my dad first took me to BGW (don't remember the year) it was open so we decided to ride. I don't remember much, but I still remember that it hurt.
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Seems like Dollywood going with Arrow for TT was a strange choice. Wasn`t there a big gap between projects for them by 99? Although i`ve heard TT is quite good.
Perhaps one day technology will advance to the point they will have simulators that can simulate any roller coaster past or present. Drachen Fire, BBW, Eagle Fortress, SOB pre loop, Origional Texas Giant, Gasm, Origional Minebuster, Ozcat... how cool would that be? We need one for the treehouse.
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It's called NoLimits. ;)
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I had a more convincing simulator in mind
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You mean like that 5D one great adventure was supposed to get?
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Seems like Dollywood going with Arrow for TT was a strange choice. Wasn`t there a big gap between projects for them by 99? Although i`ve heard TT is quite good.
Perhaps one day technology will advance to the point they will have simulators that can simulate any roller coaster past or present. Drachen Fire, BBW, Eagle Fortress, SOB pre loop, Origional Texas Giant, Gasm, Origional Minebuster, Ozcat... how cool would that be? We need one for the treehouse.
Tennessee tornado is one of the best loopers around period in my opinion. Only problem it has is that its a little short but it sucks that arrow went bankrupt right when they started to get really good. It was intense yet smooth and had very cool forces.
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It is a great ride. Still no Anton, but a nice change from the B&M mentality. The big drop in the tunnel is awesome!
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I know a guy who isn't really an enthusiast, works as HR for an Armored Car service in the DC area. When he was a young adult, he lived near and worked for Busch gardens. He had photos of the Drachen Fire model from before it was even announced.
Anywho, What 'supposedly' happened is BGW wanted a coaster for that year, not sure if B&M couldn't or wouldn't do one at the park (due to time constraints, lack of availability, money, whatever), but the decision was made to go with Arrow, which the park had a great working relationship with. BGW wanted something new (they already had LNM and didn't need another stock Arrow looper), so that was what Arrow came up with.
If you notice, every element save for the first, which was kind of a modified kamakazi turn, were made up of elements Arrow was already doing.
It seems Ron Toomer didn't like to push limits. I think that's pretty evident in that Arrow looping coasters didn't really get 'good' until after he retired, which was too late.
Thankfully the guy that created and designed the 4D concept for Arrow is the same guy who is working with Rocky Mountain Coasters on The (new) Texas Giant. Which is why I'm excited. Once they were allowed to use computers to design coasters, it shows that they were good at it.
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So assuming that account is true, that would debunk all of the theories about B&M designing the layout and Arrow tweaking it.
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It seems Ron Toomer didn't like to push limits. I think that's pretty evident in that Arrow looping coasters didn't really get 'good' until after he retired, which was too late.
Thankfully the guy that created and designed the 4D concept for Arrow is the same guy who is working with Rocky Mountain Coasters on The (new) Texas Giant. Which is why I'm excited. Once they were allowed to use computers to design coasters, it shows that they were good at it.
Arrow made some great loopers before Tennessee Tornado. Orient Express (before it became ridiculously rough) was one of my all-time favorite steel coasters. It had loads of airtime with three great drops and made good use of the terrain. The whole "Ron Toomer designed coasters with a coat hanger" thing has really been blown out of proportion. He used the hanger as a simple modeling tool for working out concepts before doing the engineering. It's something us engineers do from time to time. ;) They were using computers before Ron Toomer retired. They just had a lot of catching up to do.
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I wonder exactly what happened with Rip, Ride, Rockit. The ride was rumored to be built by B&M, but word got out Maurer Shone was doing it and that B&M turned it down because they couldn't manage it. After the whole train incident was fixed I heard that B&M just flat out denied Universal about the project, even with the remaking of the trains. And right now the future of the ride is a bit unknown. I know they contacted premier, intamin, and I believe Mack, too about the remaking of at least the trains. Of course everyone stepped back and Maurer is kind of left cleaning up their own mess right now.
From experience and from others, Rip Ride Rockit isn't what it's cracked up to be. The trains look mighty comfy and all, but the ride gets pretty rough in some areas, all the curved drops and the crowd surfer section really don't help the ride much. It looks nice on paper, but it's bad in use.
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Having a rather close relation to that ride, I can assure you that B&M was not the original project plan. It was sent for bid just like most projects and they simply didn't go with them.
However, after the train problem and a delay on replacement parts, B&M was one of many contacted to fabricate new bogeys. That they did turn down.
From what I've heard, the ride is great fun now and running much better with the new bogey design.
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Does anyone have/know of any pictures of the old and new Rip Ride Rockit trains? That was never a ride I really followed much on so I am kind of lost in this part of the conversation lol
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Trains are the same. Just the wheel assemblies changed and it's not obvious from above.
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So assuming that account is true, that would debunk all of the theories about B&M designing the layout and Arrow tweaking it.
I've heard from quite a few people in the know that the reason that SFKK didn't name T2 to Batman after painting it black was because B&M didn't want people thinking that the SLC was their product. I don't see them designing anything and letting Arrow tweak it. Having said that, B&M didn't really design their layouts back then anyways, Stengle did. So mayhaps that's who came up with a design and it got tweaked after Arrow took over, I dunno, but I've never believed that B&M did anything more than tell BGW what elements they could put on a coaster, if they even did that, when it comes to Drachen Fire.
Orient Express (before it became ridiculously rough)
You just proved my whole point ;-)
Having a rather close relation to that ride, I can assure you that B&M was not the original project plan. It was sent for bid just like most projects and they simply didn't go with them.
Bingo. Apparently Universal US didn't want to pay for the B&M that Japan got, but wanted something similar.
As for that particular ride, it wasn't that rough when I rode it, it was just boring.
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Having said that, B&M didn't really design their layouts back then anyways, Stengle did.
Well, whoever's been designing the new B&M's needs to get their act together. Most of the hypers as of late (2007-on) aren't very good.
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Like
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Well, whoever's been designing the new B&M's needs to get their act together. Most of the hypers as of late (2007-on) aren't very good.
hahaha I literally laughed from this comment. nice
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Amusement Park Type Design Status Opened
Apollo's Chariot
Behemoth 5/4/2008
Diamondback 4/18/2009
Goliath Sfog
Goliath La Ronde
Hollywood Dream: The Ride
Intimidator Carowinds Steel Sit Down Operating 3/27/2010
Nitro
Raging Bull
Silver Star
I guess those three aren't that good out of the ten hypers. ?
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I happen to think intimidator is very good.
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When the trims don't hit you mean. ;)
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Whoops, hit seven instead of six... Why would I imply that Goliath @ La Ronde was good?
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Some people claim it's great. My couple of rides were nothing exciting.
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I just think they are becoming old news, and too common. I'm glad there isn't one being built in NA for 2011. It's like the only thing B&M builds anymore around here. I guess thats why wing ridders have starded production. I don't know what this has to do with drachen Fire though ;)
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^^ You just hate french people ;)
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Behemoth pwned Goliath for best Canadian hyper. I don't think they are old news at all. They just keep disappointing. B&M really got it right with Goliath over Georgia and ever since, their new rides have become very inconsistent with trim brakes either giving a great ride or a crappy ride. Even reviews for Intimidator range from best steel coaster ever to just another B&M depending on how many trims hit that time around.
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I can`t talk too much cuz i`ve only ridden 3. From pictures and POV`s I can see what you guys are saying, especially in the case of Goliath (georgia). The one thing I really like about the new models are the trains. I really like the v-shape trains. Behemoth is very basic but due to its location there isn`t a whole lot else they could do with it more than an out and back. But as we all know the ending is weak. Goliath (que) has a soft turnaround, and thats my favourite part of the 3 i`ve been on, especially behemoth. Diamonback hasa bit of a interesting layout but it seems so soft. Nitro was cool in all ways but I think I got a bad ride. Also I don`t prefer the 4 across trains. I can`t wait to ride goliath, and apollos. Bull intreagues me cuz it`s different. it`s the worst one though isn`t it?
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Actually, Matt, even with the trims, it's a good coaster. Without the 2nd trim, it's amazing.
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A giant coaster like that should always be great. You don't need to go over 50 feet tall to be a good coaster.
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In my opinion I dislike the new trains. I know I am probably one of the only people who do, but I think the old trains are much more fitting for a B&M hyper coaster.
Having been on Behemoth, Diamondback, and Intimidator, I only think Behemoth is great. I understand that B&M hypers are very suceptible to many variables (temperature, time of day, trims) as I have been on Nitro many times and sometimes have an amazing ride while other times have weak rides, and having only ridden Diamondback once and Intimidator twice, I can't hate on them too much.
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I don't mind the new trains, but I also don't think there was anything wrong with the old ones.
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I prefer the new trains. Especially if you're sitting in the 2nd row of the first car. I always prefer trains with 2 rows as opposed to trains with one row because it always seems that in certain seats (like Magnum's 1-3) you get some great airtime. The 2nd and especially 4th rows on Intimidator are great regardless of if the trim is hitting or not.
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I prefer the new trains. Especially if you're sitting in the 2nd row of the first car. I always prefer trains with 2 rows as opposed to trains with one row because it always seems that in certain seats (like Magnum's 1-3) you get some great airtime. The 2nd and especially 4th rows on Intimidator are great regardless of if the trim is hitting or not.
Agreed! 2nd row first car is like front row with no wait. The tight together seats suck but they`re for GP anyways. The back wings are the best on behemoth.