Great Adventure Outpost
Great Adventure Boards => Great Adventure Chit Chat => Topic started by: DianaR on January 27, 2006, 09:56:45 AM
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http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=147698
"?Understand, we are not doing away with new roller coasters completely,? he said. ?But, spending $50 million of our $150 million capital improvement budget on a roller coaster doesn?t leave much to run the park.?
Maybe we are prematurely getting upset? LOL
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?While Mr. Six brought us great awareness, we aren?t sure exactly what he represents yet,? Shapiro said. ?We will find a way to use him, but not make him the headline as the park did in the past.?
haha.. hes listening. This is grreat news.
By the way.. he likes SFOG more than GADV. I dont think he complimnted our park at all..
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Did he visit Great Adventure yet? I didn't see any news articles about it, and he's been getting a bit of press wherever he goes.
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If he did, there were no articles about it.
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Did he visit Great Adventure yet? I didn't see any news articles about it, and he's been getting a bit of press wherever he goes.
yes.. i believe he did visit the park
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There are times when no news is good news...
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This news though will mean that if we do get coasters in the future, it may just be one or two parks a year getting them untill the revenue increases. That, or, when we get coasters they will be smaller then we are used to. *cough* Impulse *cough*
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Impulses are great, IF the hold brake is put on them and stays on them....
Cedar Fair saw fit to take the hold brake off Steel Venom (fka Superman) at Geauga Lake (fka Six Flags Worlds of Adventure fka Six Flags Ohio). Sigh.
The ride experience is no longer what it once was.
Then there is Wicked Twister, which never HAD one...
Sigh.
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http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/13746468.htm
Things like:
"There will not be a day when you see less than 25 characters back in the park," said Shapiro, adding that kids like having their pictures taken with these action heroes.
are perfefctly fine with me. I still like a lot of what I hear.
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^if they can get enough staff to do it. They can't get sufficient staff to operate all the rides in the park, much less put 25+ characters outside all day.
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^ That's part of the overall idea of what he's proposing though...proper staffing levels.
Having worked at the park for many years I can tell you, staffing was always a challenge, but it was always made worse by corporate. In the beginning of the season they are short staffed and use TONS of overtime to keep things running. Then, by mid-Summer, they end up having to cut hours all over because they've blown their budgets, and corporate management wants to bring costs back in line.
If corporate is serious about making things work, they will have to be committed to spending the money for adequate staff ALL THE TIME. Raising ticket prices actually goes a long way to help this.
Shapiro says he's committed to fixing things, and I'm sure he'll understand that this kind of staffing requires a commitment of money for staffing, as well as incentives to retain staff.
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Things like:
"There will not be a day when you see less than 25 characters back in the park," said Shapiro, adding that kids like having their pictures taken with these action heroes.
are perfefctly fine with me. I still like a lot of what I hear.
I agree. Borrowing ideas from disney is perfectly fine with me. What little kid doesnt like taking pictures with characters?
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^ That's part of the overall idea of what he's proposing though...proper staffing levels.
Having worked at the park for many years I can tell you, staffing was always a challenge, but it was always made worse by corporate. In the beginning of the season they are short staffed and use TONS of overtime to keep things running. Then, by mid-Summer, they end up having to cut hours all over because they've blown their budgets, and corporate management wants to bring costs back in line.
If corporate is serious about making things work, they will have to be committed to spending the money for adequate staff ALL THE TIME. Raising ticket prices actually goes a long way to help this.
Shapiro says he's committed to fixing things, and I'm sure he'll understand that this kind of staffing requires a commitment of money for staffing, as well as incentives to retain staff.
I have to say I agree it all sounds good on paper BUT will there be money to pay for it and will the people be there to staff the rides never mind the characters . To me all rides should be up and running. i hate to go to any park when too many rides are down makes me not want to return . just my two cents
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There will definately be enough money for it as they are gonna stop adding major rides for a LONG time (unless they are smart and realize when attendance drops that it is due to lack of new additions).
I am a fan of all these ideas except not adding major rides every 2-4 years to the big 4, and to a lesser extent, the other parks. Coasters are what makes SF unique and an edge over a lot of aprks. If they can get customer service and park quality to improve with the thrill rides, SF as a whole will be a winner and up there with Paramount and maybe even Busch one day.
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http://tinyurl.com/8xh4u
Every article about Shapiro has something new that I like. For example, the full-time bathroom attendants at the parks is something I welcome. I'd really like to follow him for a day, just to hear what he has to say and see how his thought process goes.
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Most of the regulars here know that I'm a big Disney dork. But there are some things I start to notice and compare after visiting Disney 6 + times a year and full-time bathroom attendants is one of them. Alright, so they may not be IN there everytime you go but there are CM's assigned to bath "areas" which includes trash cleanup in the surrounding area, etc. and it makes a HUGE difference.
I'm beginning to think that Shapiro is actually a big Disney park fan himself(Afterall, he did come from the Disney company). Tons of these ideas are being pulled right out of Disney parks and this is yet another one that could work well. The charactors being everywhere and more widely used, photo opportunities and designated smoking areas are more of the things that work well for Disney.
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I agree with you to an extent. I think it would be great if SFI could make changes that would make the parks more like Disney park, however there is on part of the equation that I think Shapiro is missing, and that is the guests.
The same people could go to Disney and SF parks and look at each park differently. For Disney they are spending thousands to visit, spending a week or more of time, and only do it once every few years or much more. It is a major investment, and people treat it as such.
SF is different. It is the local park. While it is not cheap to visit, it is a whole lot less then going to Disney. Further, they go every year, or more often. This makes a huge difference in how people view the park.
I think if SFI wants this to work (and I think they do, as I do), they are going to have to take a hard line on their policies. They are going to have to back their people up and enforce the rules. I hope they can pull it off, but it won't be easy. Then again, things worth doing are rarely easy.
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I for one dont want that mentality of the local park to go away. This place is my home when i get a free minute to go ride a coasrer i head right up the turnpike.
Its going to get too expensive for me to do this..
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These price increases are certainly going to effect me and my family but, it is still going to be the cheapest form of Spring/Summer entertainment in NJ IF, you buy the season pass and, parking pass. I can't go to the boardwalk more then one time during the on season because one day there adds up to the price of a Gadv season pass that let's me go to gadv all summer. Movies? That's expensive. The Zoo and, the Aquariums would cost us close to $100.00 just for a one day three hour visit.
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If you want to go to the boardwalk you got to buy the all day ride wristbands or go during Easter and get the ticket books for a discounted price.
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If the price increases mean things will be run and staffed at full capacity then it would be worth it. Hopefully that would also cover keeping things clean and beautified as well.
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I agree with RJ. I think we all hated the fact that Snyder took over Six Flags but him appointing Shapiro was the best thing because we are going to improve our parks tremendously. I can deal with the no coasters for atleast 2-3 years. Hopefully it wont go longer then that. But shapiro is pulling things straight out of disney like wade said. And obviously disney is ever so popular so since they work there, they should work here as well with the proper staff. Besides the fact of the price increases of tickets like Diana said, GADV is all for the better with Shapiro and his thought process.
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Good point on the regional park issue Nate. It makes you wonder... do they want ALL parks (that they actually plan to keep) to become more of a destination? Will Six Flags keep their smaller parks?
I know they had hoped to turn at least some of these larger parks into year round destinations. Some of these ideas would seem to back that up.
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^Most likely SFMM since that is open year round mostly.
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WEll he just heard that 2006 will mark the end of atleast one SF park. Why not an end to the other smaller parks in years to come?
Personally, i would love to see the small parks thrive again. Things like coney island, which is not a chain.
Thanks like clementon park have sadly dissapeared thanks in part to chains like SF.
But more relevant.. Do you think they truly want to turn GADV into a year round destination? I suppose it is possible, sort of like hershey with the winter fests and whatnot going on.
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But thats herhsey! The sweetest town in america. Its a landmark/tourist spot. We are in jackson. Home of wetlands and about 20 miles from the beach. Theres nothing really exciting to do. I wouldnt make a resort at GADV. Maybe a hotel like best western or something but not a resort out of it.
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overlord- Realize something, GADV gets more attendance and makes more money than all other SF parks, and is right up there with CP and other high caliber parks. GADV is between about 3 major cities (1 of them being the biggest in the country), and a few others not too far away. GADV is in the perfect spot to attract ridiculous amounts of tourists. If they get a hotel and more improvements and get some good reviews from paper articles and maybe a small special on Discovery like SFMM got, people will be flocking to Jackson for the park like people do for CP, and sicne the beach is right there, it will be sure to attract.
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Hmmm, Disneyword..... swamp land... middle of nowhere. Now look at it lol.
I wouldn't worry about that. People will come if there is a reason to. They need more year-round attractions, the hotel and a indoor waterpark.
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There are already people who come to Jackson, New Jersey to go to Six Flags from well over 500 miles away.
People for whom Cedar Point is a little more than 200 miles, but CHOOSE to go to Great Adventure.
Trust me.
I know these things.
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Very good point wade. PEople will come if they have a reason to do so.
Why not market holidays that are off season for rides! Im sad they got rid of winterlights, i was going to take the drive up this year. I hope they do something in the wintertime. Itll keep me from going stir crazy
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Just like Wade said, look at Disneyworld.
They would need hotel and indoor waterpark and maybe like restaraunts and a few arcades and such.
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There are already people who come to Jackson, New Jersey to go to Six Flags from well over 500 miles away.
People for whom Cedar Point is a little more than 200 miles, but CHOOSE to go to Great Adventure.
Trust me.
I know these things.
Umm no. CP attracts way more people outside of the general area than GADV does. GADV is blessed with being inbetween about 5 major cities, one being NYC. CP attracts from different countries, hence all the Travel Channel specials. GADV still doesn't attract anyone except people in general area and enthusiasts in other states. CP gets non-enthusiasts from toehr continents coming in.
Wade- I don't think making GADV year round is a good idea. CP, probably the most successful AMUSEMENT park, isn't a year round resort. Castaway Bay is outside of the park and no one will go to that in the offseason, except maybe locals. GADV should just be a resort in season, with maybe the Winter Lights gig and the hotel near KK open for that time of year as the exception. Also, Disney is different. They opened as the first ever theme park, and in places that were gonna be tourist detinations anyway. he wa sjust smart enough to buy a HUGE, HUGE chunk of land in the right spot with the right idea for a park.
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For the record, Disney was NOT the first ever theme park, Holiday World, then known as Santa Claus Land, was. August 3, 1946. Long before Walt even had an idea for a park.
And I did not say more people travel to Great Adventure than to Cedar Point. I DID say there are people (and last I checked enthusiasts are people, too, though some give even me doubts) that, given a choice, come from more than 500 miles away to go to Great Adventure. More than you might think.
The hotel is desperately needed. I hope it gets built soon.
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There were a lot of small little parks like HW back then....but NONE incorperated rides and such with the theming, especially on the GRAND scale Disney did. And HW was never a theme park, just a classic amusement park in which Santa would meet children. If you meant amusement park, the oldest operating one is Lake Compunce in Connecticut.
But you did say people who are only 200 miles from CP choose GADV over CP. Only people I know who do that are people with not enough money to go to CP or whose parents don't like to take long road trips. And GADV is still a park in which mostly attracts locals. CP is a park that relies more on tourists from other states and such.
I agree a hotel is needed, but definately not desperately. GADV is doing just fine without one.
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When you live 200 miles from CP and 500+ miles from Great Adventure, it is NOT cheaper to go to Great Adventure. The car travel, hotels and even the prices at the two parks all add up to Cedar Point being more economical. Those who CHOOSE to go to Great Adventure in such circumstances are certainly NOT doing it to save money. (It is also a longer road trip to travel 500+ miles to Great Adventure than it is to go 200 miles to Cedar Point!)
And Holiday World widely claims to have been the first themed park, with themed areas. It is largely accepted as such by the industry, at least as far as the USA goes.
http://themeparks.about.com/library/parks/blholidayworldb.htm
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MANY more people would choose (and have chosen) CP over GADV for vacations. That is FACT. Of course there are exceptions, but CP still is much more visited and populated by tourists from everywhere. GADV is mostly NYC/NJ crowds, with some from PA/Conn./etc...
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Again, HW really isn't a theme park. If you consider it to be, that is fine. But even if it was the first, it still didn't mix in thrills with theme (HW doesn't have much theming). Disney was the first to mix in some thrills with theming that was NEVER before seen and way ahead of its. When you step into HW, past or present, you are still at "the local park", but when you go to Disney, you enter a brand new world. I consider Disney the first theme park.
I'm not trying to start any arguements or anything, but how isn't Holiday World a Theme Park? Sure its traditional... it's small, but the park has various sections, THEMED to different Holidays. Halloween, Christmas, 4th of July, and now Thanksgiving...
A park like LC is something I wouldn't consider a Theme Park... just another "local park"
All of the Disney parks are very well themed and they all feel like "a different world". I wouldn't put it in the same "category" as HW, but they are both theme parks in their own respects.
Knotts is the first theme park :wink:
Rob, sorry to go off topic a little.
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Nitro:
Your argument that more people choose CP for vacations from further away (othe countries, etc.) illustrates the point that SFGADV needs the hotel. CP gets most of this business because they have the hotels!! SFGADV will never compete for that section of business without a hotel.
We only live 125 miles from SFGADV and the first time we went as a family for the weekend I was aghast at the poor selection of lodging. The hotel will be a great boon to the park. I look for it to change to the Great Escape model with an indoor waterpark so the hotel can run all year.
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Nitro,
I work with the public. I can tell you that if your talking enthusiasts choosing CP over Gadv, yeah but, not the GP or locals. If I ask people what park do they think of when thinking vacation, almost all of them tell me Disney and company. Alot of people outside Ohio and surrounding states don't even know CP exsists but, everyone knows Disney. Your passion for CP is wonderful and, I enjoy squabbling with you once in a while but, I did see a point in time when you were for Gadv, I really wish you'd make up your mind lol. You really need to think about stuff in a broader spectrum and from more then just the enthusiast standpoint.
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Wade- I don't think making GADV year round is a good idea. CP, probably the most successful AMUSEMENT park, isn't a year round resort. Castaway Bay is outside of the park and no one will go to that in the offseason, except maybe locals. GADV should just be a resort in season, with maybe the Winter Lights gig and the hotel near KK open for that time of year as the exception. Also, Disney is different. They opened as the first ever theme park, and in places that were gonna be tourist detinations anyway. he wa sjust smart enough to buy a HUGE, HUGE chunk of land in the right spot with the right idea for a park.
my question is.. why NOT go all year round. GADV is going to become more than CP in the coming years, i have no proof, im going on gut feelings here. New management is showing signs of an north east Disney here, and i say why not. Its about time someone grabs the success of Disney.. regardless of the weather patterns. There are ways around that.
People need something to do in the winter around here or they WILL go to Disney. WHy not market that?
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Nitro:
Your argument that more people choose CP for vacations from further away (othe countries, etc.) illustrates the point that SFGADV needs the hotel. CP gets most of this business because they have the hotels!! SFGADV will never compete for that section of business without a hotel.
We only live 125 miles from SFGADV and the first time we went as a family for the weekend I was aghast at the poor selection of lodging. The hotel will be a great boon to the park. I look for it to change to the Great Escape model with an indoor waterpark so the hotel can run all year.
I agree 100%. I said a hotel is a great idea. But making an indoor waterpark and making it year round would be premature for now.
Frisbeeking- If you are going top call HW a theme park because each section is devoted to a holiday, that is your opinion. HW has no real theming, and if you consider HW a theme park, then you have to do the same for parks before it that had sections devoted to a central theme. It wasn't until Disney that they mixed true theming and thrills together, and made you enter a new world (which is the real point of theming a park).
Diana- I never compared Disney to CP vacation-wise. Never. But to say CP doesn't get many more tourist that are going just for the park that GADV gets is just wrong. As for which park I like more, that is not relevant to the conversation, but I like CP more, but GADV is almost right there.
Nick- CP has been a resort for a hundred years now. The mix of tradition, quality, and fame (CP does get all those specials on Discovery Channel and people from NJ actually know about it) makes CP a resort. It is gonna take years before GADV is with CP in that regard. I also have a feeling GADV will be more than CP, but not anytime soon. As for GADV being a year round resort, they should take it one step at a time. They don't even know if being an in season resort will work yet, let alone attracting people when there are no roller coasters to ride. And central NJ in the winter isn't exactly a winter wonderland or something to travel to. Also, new mangangement, namely Shapiro, haven't even touched on GADV yet. He hasn't even visited GADV yet, let alone call it a NE Disney. GADV will never be Disney. But they can be the best amusement park resort in the world, but that will take many years.
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I'm not comparing CP to Disney Per say, I am just saying that people aren't as CP aware as you make them out to be.
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My point being is that they are a lot more aware than they are of GADV. I am actually surprised how many people I have seen at GADV with shirts of CP, or in school, and it all goes back to it being probably the overall most famous amusement park in the world next to Cony Island.
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Also, new mangangement, namely Shapiro, haven't even touched on GADV yet. He hasn't even visited GADV yet, let alone call it a NE Disney.
For obvious reasons, I can't elaborate but I can tell you for sure that he has already toured the property. The discussions that occurred just weren't made public like they were at some of the other parks.
I agree though, they need to take baby steps to work this out. I can see them opening for the holidays and then closing again at first.
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overlord- Realize something, GADV gets more attendance and makes more money than all other SF parks, and is right up there with CP and other high caliber parks. GADV is between about 3 major cities (1 of them being the biggest in the country), and a few others not too far away. GADV is in the perfect spot to attract ridiculous amounts of tourists. If they get a hotel and more improvements and get some good reviews from paper articles and maybe a small special on Discovery like SFMM got, people will be flocking to Jackson for the park like people do for CP, and sicne the beach is right there, it will be sure to attract.
You make a good point. I could see a hotel being constructed but i dont see it becoming a resort. I dont know if its good that a hotel might be built or if its bad. I know more people = more money = more improvements. But then we lose with the lines and customer satisfaction drops off there for impatient people. I dont know. I would like to see GADV be popular but not so much so that it becomes a 240 acre disney park. If they establish parts of the park on pieces of land out past the lake then the park would be more spaced out and the lines wouldnt be so bad. I guess we just have to find the right balance.
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My point being is that they are a lot more aware than they are of GADV. I am actually surprised how many people I have seen at GADV with shirts of CP, or in school, and it all goes back to it being probably the overall most famous amusement park in the world next to Cony Island.
Really? That has not been the case for me. More people know SF then CF in my case. I see more Hershey Park shirts at Gadv then I do any CP shirts. Most of the time if I see a CP shirt it is a visiting Coaster Enthusiast. This year they may have been more prevelant because of KK. From my POV the picture is alot differant then yours.
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Of course more people know SF to CF...there are like 25 SF parks to CF's 7. More people from NJ go to Hershey because Hershey is only 3 hours away to CP which is 8 hours. But, CP is much more world renowned than GADV. You probably don't see much CP because you are in NJ most of the time, but go outside of GADV and many more people know CP than GADV (heck, I even saw a CP commercial in Vegas!).
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I'm not saying they should jump right into it.. I'm saying that its something that should most definitely be looked into more carefully.
And as for the jersey winter. Its depressing because there's nothing to do any nowhere to go unless you leave the state.. for a place like Disney. I'm saying.. give us something to DO in the WINTER. we have NOTHING right now. I think it would be gold if GADV were to capitalize on this.
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Except for Winter Lights, there is nothing really all that possible. Again, GADV should see if the in season resort works first. It is depressing NJ has nothing to do for winter, but there really aren't too many possibilities. Too bad GADV wasn't a little closer to Seaside, then they could do like fireworks and crap and make deals that if you stay at GADV's hotel, you get free access to that.
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I think you really need to expand your thinking on winter operations. While mostly geared toward Christmas, several parks have made winter operations very successful, including Hershey and Dollywood.
The rides can run. Dollywood runs there coasters in 40+ degree whether, and flats can be run in any temp. GAdv could easlily run half the park, with several coasters, lots of different shows, as well as lighting up the park for the season. They could not open until 4, and stay open until 10. There is no reason it cannot succeed with the drawing capability they have.
As for the resorts, if an indoor waterpark can work, in all places, in Erie, there is no reason GAdv can't have one that books up year round. Combined with a family entertainment center, I can see it becoming a major regional attraction in the winter.
GAdv has the space and the scenery that would work well as a year round resort. I can just imagine a large resort hotel on the other side of the lake from the park, with an indoor waterpark, huge arcade, indoor kiddie rides and even a small coaster. The whole thing could be connected to the park with a nice paddle wheel that cruises back and forth across the lake.
I think you are being very closed minded on the idea and not looking at the marketing potental the park has. Further, you are not looking at what is indeed working for other parks that can easily be applied to GAdv.
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No, I am being realistic. There is a reason parks aren't open in the winter, and it isn't because rides can't run.
I think you are confusing what makes a park successful in winter to what makes a resort successful in the winter. Sure, winter lights and a few flat rides (no coasters are gonna operate in the cold winters NJ gets) might attract a F-E-W people to the park, but just locals. No one is gonna travel from different states and stay at an on site hotel just for a few nice Christmas lights and 1/4 of a park open. There are much better resorts that have the indoor water parks and have true winter attractions like skiing. Hershey is successful in winter only because of the Christmas crap, but that is only a one nigh thing, not something people would travel out of state to and stay at the on site hotel.
I think you are not realizing what could be and what will never happen. Again, if they are gonna be a year round resort, they would have to have the Winter Lights, park open, and much more to get people travelling to the on site hotel. And what you imagine with a monster hotel across the lake with paddle boats travelling back and forth between the hotel and park like at IOA is imagination, like you said. We still have no idea how one hotel will do in season, let alone making a huge hotel that would be open all season.
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Nitro, you really are underestimating how much people will travel for a park in the dead of winter. Hershey probably has worse winters than we do, but their Christmas is very popular AFAIK. I was going to go to HP over winter break, with my girlfriend and some of her family because they wanted to go to the "half park". People like going to good parks in the cold, even if the big rides are closed. As long as the small ones are still going and it's adequately priced (HP is pay per ride), people will go.
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Nitro:
You are thinking too small. Hotels that are only open part of the year are in trouble from the get go. The cost of maintaining the physical plant without revenue makes the business plan very difficult. SF already knows this and that is why the lodge at Great Escape is opening the new indoor water park this month. I have no doubt that the new mgt. has delayed things here to look into doing the same thing.
The best example of the same problem are the ski resorts which are now putting in summer activities to allow year round operation. I am not aware of any indoor water park that has failed. If SFGADV opens one the nearest competition would be in the Poconos (at least until the other announced NJ park gets going if ever) and indoor water parks in the midwest have flourished with competition in the same city.
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The hotel across the lake isn't a figment (yes, bad disney joke) of our imaginiation. It was in the works before the current hotel was even announced. True, they were waiting to see how the first onsite hotel did but we didn't just dream this up. And saying people in NJ aren't interested in a QUICK retreat from the brutal cold is narrow minded IMO.
Actually, it's exactly what people in the northeast are looking for. And its exactly why these indoor tropical oasis waterparks are doing so well.
What depotrat said is 100% true. A hotel cannot survive there by only being open April -October. There are so many reasons why this wouldn't work that I won't even bother listing them.
It does make you wonder though if the hotel being put on hold by Shapiro has anything to do with a indoor water park NOT being included. That concerned me from the first moment this project was annouced.
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Dude.. there is no way that dollywood is a big franchise or a resort or anything of the sort. ITs simply, the only thing to do around there in the winter time! Ive done the dollywood deal.. and they have rides open. IT wasnt all that bad. The shows still ran and they had an awesome firework/light display for the christmas season and beyond. It was a really good time, and there is many possibilities for a winter opening.
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Excuse me...Dollywood is right beside The Great Smokey Mountains National Park, Gatlinburg and about 645 tourist attractions at last count. Just cause coaster people don't find any other coasters around (well, not since the NASCAR thingy closed) doesn't mean an area isn't a huge tourist draw.
And there is a TREMENDOUS difference in December weather between extreme southern Tennessee and mid-state New Jersey. To put it mildly...
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Plus, the whole hotel not open all year thing reminds me of The Shining :shock:
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Nitro, you really are underestimating how much people will travel for a park in the dead of winter. Hershey probably has worse winters than we do, but their Christmas is very popular AFAIK. I was going to go to HP over winter break, with my girlfriend and some of her family because they wanted to go to the "half park". People like going to good parks in the cold, even if the big rides are closed. As long as the small ones are still going and it's adequately priced (HP is pay per ride), people will go.
It's changing....
http://www.hersheypa.com/attractions/hersheypark/hours/christmas.html
10 bucks isn't bad for a nice selection of flats, entertainment, and holiday specials...
-KKR05
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What depotrat said is 100% true. A hotel cannot survive there by only being open April -October. There are so many reasons why this wouldn't work that I won't even bother listing them.
Uh huh . . . so that Hotel Breakers over in Ohio is a failure?
And the Nascar Speedpark in TN closed???
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Excuse me...Dollywood is right beside The Great Smokey Mountains National Park, Gatlinburg and about 645 tourist attractions at last count. Just cause coaster people don't find any other coasters around (well, not since the NASCAR thingy closed) doesn't mean an area isn't a huge tourist draw.
And there is a TREMENDOUS difference in December weather between extreme southern Tennessee and mid-state New Jersey. To put it mildly...
thats not my point! I have relatives that live down the street ive been there more times than i dont know what ad ill be there presidents day weekend again this year. MY point is that we too CAN have something like that just as long as they do it right! Open the rides, have fun shows, there are tons of people who would come and enjoy that regardless of whats around the park.
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Uh huh . . . so that Hotel Breakers over in Ohio is a failure?
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Not getting it... They are completely different economic situations. Breakers has been there for 100 years. It also doesn't have ANY problems with occupancy during the months they are open. You can't open a brand new hotel and expect to reach those same levels overnight.
A hotel in NJ that can't fill rooms for a few months of the year vs. a hotel is Ohio that is closed a few months are completely different situations that cannot be compared. Our economy is so different here.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I just worry about HOW it might be done which could very easily lead to failure.
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And chilled182, when you go President's Day Weekend, you will find Dollywood to be ....
CLOSED...
for the winter. Which it does from about Christmas until late March every year.
It should also be noted that many, if not most people who go to Dollywood go there for the shows and entertainment and the shopping. In large part, the rides are there to keep the grandkids busy and quiet.
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Nitro, you really are underestimating how much people will travel for a park in the dead of winter. Hershey probably has worse winters than we do, but their Christmas is very popular AFAIK. I was going to go to HP over winter break, with my girlfriend and some of her family because they wanted to go to the "half park". People like going to good parks in the cold, even if the big rides are closed. As long as the small ones are still going and it's adequately priced (HP is pay per ride), people will go.
Hershey is a different situation and park than GADV. Hershey attracts families, and if you mix that traiditonal family park, the fact it is chocolate capital of the world, and something to do on Christmas, you got a winner. BUT, I highly doubt they'd see much of anything throughout the months of January and February like they would during X-Mas time. That is why i said it'd be fine to keep open the hotel during X_Mas if they could do something like Winter Lights, but it would be downright stupid to keep it open all winter. GADV doesn't have chocolate factory and tradition that Hershey has. And for that matter, we also don't have the great flat rides among other things that Hershey has outside of the coasters which don't run in the winter. If parks honestly thought it would be worth it to stay half open in the winter, many more parks in colder climates would. NLASTLY, I think you are forgetting we are talking hotel here. Did your family stay at any of the higher quality hotels down there? How many people out of state do you think was there? You got to realize even though the park is successful, is there enough people coming from out of state to make the hotel successful.
depotrat:
Do you work for SF? Do you work with GADV's mangangement? Were you there when Shapiro has toured SF parks? Did you plan GADV's new hotel? If not, I wouldn't say you have no doubt they have delayed the hotel to add a indoor waterpark.
That isn't a great example you gave. Poconos have many things to do in the summer to compliment the winter. Central NJ has nothing to do in the middle of winter. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. It is much easier to add things to do in the summer than the winter.
EVERYONE:
As I said before, GADV's hotel would never be successful in the winter unless there was much more to do in the winter. Leaving the park half open would definately NOT be enough, neither would anything like Winter Lights as that is a X-Mas only thing. And remember, those little things wouldn't attract people out of state or tourists, only people within 2 hours, which wouldn't stay at the hotel. Also, hotels can most definately stay successful without being open in the winter. AS Pashacar said, the park most comparable to GADV is CP, and their hotels aren't open in the winter, except the Raddison, which isn't even CP's hotel (I believe CP just owns the waterpark, Castaway Bay).
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Nitro1118 just to let you know I stayed at castaway bay and the hotel and water park are both owned by CF.
SFGADV probally will never go to a year round operation even with a hotel . Christmas in Hershey is nice but no coasters are open and the kids enjoyed it when they were a little younger now at 10 and 13 they don't want to go back . Our little one might enjoy it but you need other things to do there and in that area there are if i go to Cp all i do is CP and maybe GL , if i go to SFGADV all I do is that if I go to Hershey I do alot of other things in that area . Different demographics there and families are a big part of it
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How did you like Castaway Bay? I passed the Raddison when I visited CP in 2003, and looked pretty nice.
Thank you for proving my point. The only time in winter the hotel would even have a chance is on X-Mas, and even then 99% of the people visiting would be from NJ/eastern PA.
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Nitro1118
I did like castaway bay only for the fact that it had the water park. the rooms are being upgraded this year so they were a little old looking last year . the updated part of the hotel was very nice but you can see the differance of where the new and the old meet. I did enjoy the water park the three times we went . It happened that we went on the day we got there and twoother days once because of rain and once just because the kids wanted to go back one last time. I don't know if next time we go to CP we will stay at this hotel but we will stay at any CF run hotel just for the early entery to the park. We have gone to CP for the past two years and have really enjoyed it .
I am hopeful that SFGADV will really get their act together and empliment the changes that are their plans. We love the kiddie rides in Cp and the family atomsphere with the flat rides and parent swap it is truley an enjoyable day. I am counting on SF not doing much but I am hopeful that all we are hearing will happen. The Hotel at SFGADV is a good idea but not at the expensive of other things the park could be doing now to improve the running of the park . I also don't think the hotel can do much business year round with out a indoor water park and maybe some incentive to stay there like other things to visit in the area .
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depotrat:
Do you work for SF? Do you work with GADV's mangangement? Were you there when Shapiro has toured SF parks? Did you plan GADV's new hotel? If not, I wouldn't say you have no doubt they have delayed the hotel to add a indoor waterpark.
Nitro:
I didn't say they delayed the hotel to add a waterpark, I said I had no doubt that they delayed the hotel to check out a waterpark. Very different. I do not have to work for SF to have an opinion. When I said I have no doubt that doen't mean it is a fact, it means that my view of the situation leads me to believe that.
I do understand the business models of hotels and although it can be done, it is much more difficult to be profitable when only open part of the year. Many costs are fixed and a year round revenue stream is advantageos.
If SF put in an indoor waterpark their would no longer be NOTHING to do there. Do you think Lake George in February is a happening spot. How about Madison Wisconsin? These places are going to make it with the indoor parks. As I said, haven't heard of one failing yet. The business model seems to work.
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If I was to build the on-site hotel, I would definately make sure to have a world class indoor waterpark to draw in the families during the winter months and keep the money flowing. On top of that, for extra insurance, I would add a conference center. Seeing as there are no hotels in the area, I would be willing to bet that conference centers are also scarce. They can rent it out to corporations, schools for proms/graduation, trade shows, and many other things. I personally hope that the hotel is on hold for a better location, with at least one of the two improvements I would make on it added.
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I didn't say they delayed the hotel to add a waterpark, I said I had no doubt that they delayed the hotel to check out a waterpark. Very different. I do not have to work for SF to have an opinion. When I said I have no doubt that doen't mean it is a fact, it means that my view of the situation leads me to believe that.
I do understand the business models of hotels and although it can be done, it is much more difficult to be profitable when only open part of the year. Many costs are fixed and a year round revenue stream is advantageos.
If SF put in an indoor waterpark their would no longer be NOTHING to do there. Do you think Lake George in February is a happening spot. How about Madison Wisconsin? These places are going to make it with the indoor parks. As I said, haven't heard of one failing yet. The business model seems to work.
1) When you say you have no doubt they delayed it because they are looking to add an indoor waterpark is pretty mcuh you stating it fact, and you would bet almsot anything on it.
2) Again, many hotels are mighty successful when only open part of the year, especially ones that are connected to tourist traps like an amusement park.
3) Heh, again, just because you haven't heard of one failing doesn't mean sh*t. I am sure you have no facts to back up that none fail, or any percentage. People won't come from different states just for an indoor waterpark. If you packaged that with Winter Lights, half the park open, and something else, then maybe, but for the whole winter, I do not think they should keep the hotel open. I have never been to Lake George, but if there are mountains very close by or something else that could provide for winter activities, then that could easily work. With central NJ, there is nothing like that. I think a indoor waterpark would be good for summer/fall/spring, but for winter, a fairly small waterpark isn't enough to attract people away from the many true winter destinations in the NJ/PA/NY area.
RJ:
I really like the idea of a conferance center. They are one of the biggest reasons why the big hotels in Vegas survive. Also as you said, they are scarce in central NJ.
As for my ideas for GADV hotel:
Build a 4-5 star hotel across the lake. That has been a dream of mine FOREVER now. I have had this dream since 2002 when the land clearing started happenning. Of course, this would stunt future park additions as far as coasters and new themed areas, but I feel it is necassary. It would have a very similar appearence to Hard Rock Hotel at Unuversal Orlando. Very laid back, but everything is high quality and top notch, and also looks very classy. Of course, it wouldn't have that theme, but you get the point. This kind of hotel would attract just because of the hotel part, and people would go there even though they may not like amusement parks.
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If that land across the lake has development potential, look for Six Flags to sell it to raise money to pay off creditors, sad to say. . .
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Nitro:
Indoor waterparks are fairly new. The first popped up in the midwest and have been wildly successful. The winter is long and cold and folks are looking for recreation. I am not aware of any failing yet - are you? Now the phenonmenon is coming to the east in the Poconos and Lake George and the early booking on these, both just open, has been strong.
The indoor park is the attraction, that is why the folks come to the hotel. What data do you have that folks won't come from different states for an indoor waterpark? The model of the Poconos and Lake George is not built on local use only because some of these parks only allow use of the waterpark for hotel guests. Six Flags is already in the waterpark business so the synergy is there. Seems like a natural to me.
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If that land across the lake has development potential, look for Six Flags to sell it to raise money to pay off creditors, sad to say. . .
I wouldn't mark it as sold just yet. I have a feeling that Shapiro may realize that land is potential, and that land locking parks is a bad idea. I'd see the land that SFI owns that isn't attached to parks being sold, them maybe some outlying areas being sold after that if there's a need. I don't see them land locking their parks though.
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That would make sense, but Six Flags is desperate for money to pay off creditors right now, and investors have been told that large sales of real estate (including, perhaps entire parks) can be expected. I agree I wouldn't mark that land across the lake sold yet, but I wouldn't assume it's safe from sale, either.
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For better or worse, Six Flags owns a ton of land in NJ that isn't associated with the park at all or even near it for that matter. HOPEFULLY this is what we see them unload.
Six Flags REALLY doesn't need to be owning land with failing strip malls, etc. right now.
I'm also not sure the land around Gadv is all that valuable right now. Its not in a location like SFA where there is crazy development going on.
GADVwow, I really really hope you are wrong but I know anything is possible at this point with SFI.
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Nitro:
Indoor waterparks are fairly new. The first popped up in the midwest and have been wildly successful. The winter is long and cold and folks are looking for recreation. I am not aware of any failing yet - are you? Now the phenonmenon is coming to the east in the Poconos and Lake George and the early booking on these, both just open, has been strong.
The indoor park is the attraction, that is why the folks come to the hotel. What data do you have that folks won't come from different states for an indoor waterpark? The model of the Poconos and Lake George is not built on local use only because some of these parks only allow use of the waterpark for hotel guests. Six Flags is already in the waterpark business so the synergy is there. Seems like a natural to me.
Again, places like the Pocono's and many places in the midwest thrive in the winter....the indoor waterparks give it the edge in the winter to the other hotels. GADV is not an attraction in the winter, and more people would go to true winter attractions like the Pocono's (which as you said, now have a ton of indoor waterparks). Totally different situations.
People don't go to any hotel that is under 5 stars just to go there. They go there so they have a place to sleep at and spend some time at while they are at the true destination (theme park, skiing, visiting city, etc...). I am also not a fan of GADV getting a indoor waterpark as HH, a great waterpark, would be less than 1,000ft from the proposed site of the new hotel. And there is no way they have near enough space to put a HUGE indoor waterpark to even compare to HH. So, most people would pay the 50 dollars less to stay outside the park, spend the 30-40 bucks to go to a far superior waterpark which is also at GADV, and you get the point. CP understood this, and added Castaway Bay to Raddison, which 1/2-1 mile from the causeway. And again, THAT is a different situation, as they are an already ESTABLISHED resort with other hotels in the area with indoor waterparks.
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If your theory is true, and that an indoor waterpark is simply a suppliment to other winter activities, why is it an indoor waterpark has been thriving in Erie, PA for several years now? I've been there in winter, and there is nothing else to do there. An indoor waterpark is not a suppliment to the destination, it is the destination. People will come down from NYC just to spend the weekend and get away from everything.
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The two indoor waterparks seem to do well all Winter in Sandusky Ohio, and God knows there's nothing to draw people there in the off season except cold wind and snow off the lake.
An indoor waterpark/resort would do really well just with locals who want to get away for a day or two, let alone the millions of people who live within a days drive. If for some reason the attendance dropped off in the Winter (which I doubt), they can always run specials to get the locals in.
In this video of the opening of Great Escape Lodge (http://www.wnyt.com/x783.xml?m=x6921) they mention the possibility of opening the waterpark to locals if attendance should drop off at the hotel.
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I never said it woudn't do well...in the summer. In winter, it would be stupid to keep it open.
VERY few people would waste the 100+ dollars a night just to go to a small waterpark and decent hotel with no amusment park instead of waiting a few months for the huge waterpark and amazing amsuement park. And yet again, if parks weren't so sure that they wouldn't make much money in winter, they wouldn't have the parks closed! If they thought they'd make a ton from adding hotels in the winter, more would do it!
Yes, adding one if the hotel doesn't do well. All I have said from the first place is see if a normal hotel would survive.
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Castaway Bay doesn't seem to have a problem. All their rooms are priced between $89 and $332 per night right now in February: Click to see (http://www.cedarpointresorts.com/smsworld/wc.dll?smsWorld~SelectRate~&wsi=castaway)
Great Wolf Lodge in Sandusky doesn't have a problem. All their rooms are priced between $299 and $389 this week: Click to see (http://ohio.greatwolflodge.com/default.aspx?page=rooms&room=rates)
There is a larger population here than in the middle of Ohio, and there's even more to do and see here than in Sandusky in Winter. :lol:
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OUCH, 299-389? That is really overpriced...
Anyway, again, just because they are open in winter doesn't mean they do great. SF adds a ton of coasters to the overpriced amusement parks it has, and up until 2 years ago kept adding new parks, yet SF isn't doing well. As I keep saying, GADV is a different situation than CP. At least near CP, they have Lake Erie and the islands to tour on, and they don't have places like the Pocono's an hour away like GADV does to take away any possibe winter attendance. GADV has nothing to do in the winter, and I just don't see many people coming to the indoor waterpark in the winter when they can go to the huge waterpark, and amusement park, a few months later. Or, they can do so much more and ge tthe indoor waterpark in Pocono's and I am sure northern NJ has things along those lines.
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It is NOT overpriced when every room is booked...
I have many friends with kids and teenagers. Several times so far this winter, they have tried to book weeknight rooms at the Great Wolf Lodge in Sandusky. No can do, they were told. Sold out!
Perhaps this is why the same company is expanding rapidly, including building a huge indoor waterpark/hotel at Paramount's Kings Island in Mason, Ohio.
Something is worth what people will pay for it, no more, no less.
I guess we will soon find out if enough people think Six Flags parking for a day is worth fifteen dollars...
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Yes, great wolfs have become much more popular. If this was an indoor waterpark outside of GADV, like a few miles away like PKI's will be, then I wouldn't have a problem. But as for the onsite one, they should just keep it simple and see if a hotel will work in season.
I would personally never go to Castaway Bay or Great Wolf in the offseason. No reason to. There are much better places in the winter to go, and looking at the closed park would torture me. The actual waterparks also aren't very big and nothign that i would run 45 miles to.
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PKI's Great Wolf is NOT a few miles away...In fact, it is being built on Paramount Park property. It is in the former campground, and well within walking distance of the park.
And the people I know who were going to take their kids to Great Wolf in Sandusky? Five hour drive...EACH way.
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Does PKI not have a waterpark? If not, then Great Wolf is a great decision. PKI's Great Wolf is not like how GADV's hotel will be, in the sense of making PKI a resort.
EDIT
We will not be accusing anyone of lying on these boards. Arguments will remain civil or the thread will be closed. You may say that you think someone is wrong, but be prepared to back up those thoughts with facts.
-Cyclonic
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I am not lying about anything. Paramount's Kings Island has a large waterpark, it's called Boomerang Bay (it used to be called Water Works, and it is included in park admission, unlike Soak City at Cedar Point). Across the street is another large waterpark, operated and managed by mostly former Kings Island employees and managers, called the Beach. It does very well indeed, competing with Kings Island and even offering its own Christmas festival.
The truth of my "the place was filled" comments is demonstrated by the rates that Great Wolf charges. They are very bright people, and charge those rates that will result in them making the most money.
As they are charging the high rates that they do, it is obvious that they are usually full. An empty room is profit lost. NO hotel or motel wants that.
I do not appreciate your violating the terms of service here and accusing me of lying. If you knew who I was, you would be VERY embarassed to say the least. I believe, since you made this public allegation, you owe me a just as public apology.
The mistake you make is that since YOU wouldn't travel ten hours total to go to a waterpark, you think no one else would either. Not true.
May I remind you that others think that people like those who post on this board, who go halfway or all the way across the country or world to ride a roller coaster are also nuts! :)
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Yeah, I wasn't sure if PKI had a BOomerang Bay or not like PGA has.
Just because GW has high rates doens't mean they are constantly filled, especially in winter time.
There is no place in the ToS that says you can't accuse someone of lying. I didn't attack you, call you names, or anything, but I still believe you are lying about the palce being sold out and your friends driving 5 hours just for the waterpark. And I am also very skeptical of these friends, as you said before they drive 8 hours for GADV and won't drive 2 hours for CP, or something very similar to that.
I don't known anyone, kid, adult, teengaer, you name it, who would travel 10 hours for a waterpark not even half the size of the one we have less than an hour and a half away. Period.
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Thanks for the video GA. My friends and I, all being around the age of 20 visited Great Wolf Lodge in the Poconos this January not for the skiing or any of the winter activities that the Pocono Mountains provide, we stayed at the Great Wolfe Lodge just for the waterpark and to get away. All of us are students and just needed a mid-winter break and I tell ya, this was the best place we could've possibly chosen. We're already planing next years trip JUST to visit the resort and waterpark. Keep in mind, the three days we were there, we didn't leave the hotel once. And we felt that still wasn't enough fun for us. Next year, we may go for 4 nights. It really is a great value, for around $400 a night you get such amazing, first class service and an amazing waterpark. My point is that this resort was such a blast, not just for the families that we saw having so much fun, but also for a bunch of college students just looking to get away. Our waitress at dinner mentioned that a lot of their guests come from Long Island, where we came from. So people will drive to visit these places in the winter. Yes I know the Poconos have winter activities but thats not what drew us there, it was the chance to visit a resort with an indoor waterpark in the dead of winter. Now, we went midweek and the hotel wasn't sold out but all the employees were telling us that on the weekends, the place is booked solid. After hearing about the Great Escape Lodge a few weeks ago, my friends are thinking about checking that out next year instead and that's about 6 hours away. So many people will drive to a place that provides such amazing family fun. If Six Flags builds an indoor waterpark at Great Adventure, you can bet that my friends and I will be there every winter and in ten years when we have families, you can bet we'll be bring them there. The price is totally worth the value of what you get. My friend is actually taking his family to the Great Wolf Lodge next week in the Poconos and he has three kids and I know he is gonna have a blast. He isn't going because of me, he is going because he heard about it, checked it out and wanted to take his family somewhere in the middle of the winter where they can have fun. He doesn't want to go skiing or anything, just going for the indoor waterpark.
I just wanted to add my two cents in. I think the indoor waterpark is a great idea and I think it will do better than you might think. Knowing how excited I was about going and knowing how excited I am to go back next year already, an indoor waterpark would be a hit year round.
Pete
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The fact is Great Wolf appeals to families (just as Shapiro and company intend to with Six Flags). They are not after the coaster enthusiast market.
It doesn't surprise me at all that you don't know anyone who travels that far to a waterpark. It's a totally different demographic.
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OK, this one is just going in circles guys. Time to shut it down.