Great Adventure Outpost
Industry => Industry News => Topic started by: GADVwow on November 09, 2009, 12:10:28 PM
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http://www.holidayworld.com/node/3071 (http://www.holidayworld.com/node/3071)
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Interesting news. I am a bit sad about this news because I've never been on the Voyage and really want to experience it the way it originally rode. I guess if it makes the ride faster, which means more extreme airtime, then I shouldn't be disappointed too much. Anyway, the restraints look very similar to the ones on Maurer Söhne's X-Car coasters.
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they look good and all, but it elimates the effect of a "true" woodie.
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How so?
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bitter sweet news
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They may go faster, but part of the airtime is achieved by the pivot action of the longer cars. So the question is, will the trains go faster enough to make up for the loss of pivot action? I am worried. One only needs to cite Hershey's Wildcat as an example of what happens when you replace PTC two-bench cars with single-bench cars.
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Those are trully bizzare looking trains.
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^ ya I know there funky!
But if it is the #1 wooden coaster wouldnt they keep the trains???
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Holiday World is known for being cutting edge on stuff like this. Legend, for example, opened with Gerstlauers. The park was not happy with them, and quickly replaced them with PTC's.
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They can't keep up with the PTC trains eating the Voyage, so they are looking for a lower maintenance solution. Ironically the G-train was supposed to be lower maintenance than the PTC's that followed, but G-trains suxors other than they load faster.
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^ HARD core answer Matt
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Interesting news. I am a bit sad about this news because I've never been on the Voyage and really want to experience it the way it originally rode. I guess if it makes the ride faster, which means more extreme airtime, then I shouldn't be disappointed too much. Anyway, the restraints look very similar to the ones on Maurer Söhne's X-Car coasters.
Matt... it sucks you'll never get to experience The Voyage the way it was originally designed... hopefully these wont deter from the ride too much.
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Interesting news. I am a bit sad about this news because I've never been on the Voyage and really want to experience it the way it originally rode. I guess if it makes the ride faster, which means more extreme airtime, then I shouldn't be disappointed too much. Anyway, the restraints look very similar to the ones on Maurer Söhne's X-Car coasters.
Matt... it sucks you'll never get to experience The Voyage the way it was originally designed... hopefully these wont deter from the ride too much.
Thanks rob, that made me more depressed haha
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Wow. I am stunned, if this article is correct:
...The park will spend $540,000 to replace three 28-seat cars with two new 28-seat cars on the ride Amusement Today has rated the world’s number one wooden coaster for three successive years. The third train turned out to offer only marginal improvement in operating capacity, which Koch expects to see offset by faster loading and unloading with the new cars....
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/nov/09/new-trains-should-make-award-winning-coaster-feel-/ (http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/nov/09/new-trains-should-make-award-winning-coaster-feel-/)
Assuming by "cars" they mean trains, this is the bargain of the century, if the figures are indeed correct. Even that much per train would be a bargain compared to other companies prices. Of course it is possible that Holiday World got a substantial discount by being a previous customer AND taking delivery of the very first Timberliners, but still...
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Perhaps Holiday World was annoyed with the amount of rework Voyage has required to keep it running safe and reasonably smooth as well? I know the ride has required an insane amount of work so maybe this deal was some sort of a payback?
Regardless, I think I might actually be able to handle it now without being worried about not being able to walk for a week so for me, this is good news lol. For others, I can see how this might be worrisome.
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Wow. I am stunned, if this article is correct:
...The park will spend $540,000 to replace three 28-seat cars with two new 28-seat cars on the ride Amusement Today has rated the world’s number one wooden coaster for three successive years. The third train turned out to offer only marginal improvement in operating capacity, which Koch expects to see offset by faster loading and unloading with the new cars....
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/nov/09/new-trains-should-make-award-winning-coaster-feel-/ (http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/nov/09/new-trains-should-make-award-winning-coaster-feel-/)
Assuming by "cars" they mean trains, this is the bargain of the century, if the figures are indeed correct. Even that much per train would be a bargain compared to other companies prices. Of course it is possible that Holiday World got a substantial discount by being a previous customer AND taking delivery of the very first Timberliners, but still...
Hopefully there was some sort of numeric calculation going on there and not just someone "figuring" the new trains will offset the amount of time it takes to dispatch the PTC trains. IMO I don't see that model PTC train to be very problematic with loading and unloading times. If it were El Toro's trains, then yes I can see how dispatch times are directly affected by the trains themselves.
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The seatbelts really slow things down at Holiday World because they are so diligent to check every belt and restraint. With the new restraints, the riders will be able to hand over their lose articles (another thing that slows down loading) and sit down and pull the lap bar down and be done. There won't be any fiddling with the seatbelt trying to make it fit and figure out whose seatbelt is whose and all that jazz. I can see it speeding up load times by as much as 90 seconds over the current trains.
So that is a good thing, but the ride will no longer feel as out of control and be more like El Toro. So it will gain new fans for that and lose fans for that.
The deal on the new trains is certainly a steal. I'm sure it's a combination of the trains likely being cheaper to begin with (way fewer parts) and a discount for HW being the first to invest in them in addition to already letting TGG test a prototype on Raven.
HW should have known exactly what they were getting themselves into when they ordered the Voyage. Will Koch was even considered a designer on the project. The Gravity Group designed the ride to push the envelope to where Will wanted it, so they shouldn't be held liable for the high maintenance costs.
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Thanks for the info Matt. Why are these trains going to make the ride that much smoother? The wheels are still going to be metal, correct? I think one of the biggest factors that make Intamin woodies so smooth is the fact that the wheels are polyurethane coated and not bare metal like on traditional wooden coasters. The prefabricated track helps with the precision of the track, but I think the wheels are the biggest factor making plug n' plays so smooth.
Is it the wheel placement and distance from other wheel chassis that will help smoothen the ride?
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From the Holiday World blog:
Koch says the Timberliner’s wheels are engineered to steer through curves as they move along the coaster track, creating a smoother ride and less wear and tear on the track. The seats are ergonomically designed for greater comfort, including an exclusive seat-suspension design. The padded seats will also accommodate wider-hipped and longer-legged riders.
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It's also the travel the chassis allows by the upstop wheels. RT has a lot of travel, which makes it a bit rougher. While El toro has less travel allowed, which helps the ride be smoother. other factors in this are the quality of the wood, the design, the company whom made the trains, even climate and age.
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Climate and age only matter if the ride isn't maintained in tip top shape. Some of the oldest woodies out there are among the smoothest and some of the youngest woodies out there are among the roughest. But they can all be as good as new if taken care of correctly.
El Toro utilizes the precision-milled track and poly-coated wheels for a smooth ride. Essentially it's a steel coaster made of wood. The same trains on a traditional woodie would not track as well due to variations in the gauge of the hand-crafted track. Similarly, if PTC trains were put on El Toro, you wouldn't have the poly-coated wheels to dampen the forces imparted by the track. So for that ride, it's a combination of the coated wheels and the manufactured track which make it not feel like a wood coaster at all.
The Timberliners have regular metal wheels (no coating) like traditional woodie trains, but they "clamp" to the track to minimize any bouncing between the rails (which is a big cause of track damage) and since there is a wheel set underneath each seat, each car (seat) is able to pivot at its center of gravity (like B&M cars) and steer. Traditional woodie cars basically slide through the turns, hugging the outside rail which keeps the cars from flying off the track. The Timberliners' wheel assemblies adapt and turn with the curvature of the track. My understanding is that the Millennium Flyer trains lack the clamping action that the Timberliners have so although they can steer, they don't "clamp" to the track and thus can still bounce between the rails a bit.
I heard the Timberliners have something like twice as many wheels as PTC's do, but due to the steering ability and clamping the track, they have less rolling friction and thus will go faster than the PTC's do. All of this precision is sure to result in a less "woodie" feel, BUT it's still metal wheels on hand-crafted track, so it won't feel like you're on steel.
These trains should work wonders for Boardwalk Bullet if they ever get to that ride. BB tests the limits of PTC's steering problem even more than the Voyage does.
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I have faith in GG that they designed these cars to have the same, if not more, airtime as they originally had. We can only sit tight and wait until next season before we see how things roll out.
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good to see they'll be increasing the capacity of the ride though.
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It's great to see these new trains, but I fear it may only lower capacity with only 2 trains...
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or it could balance out, maybe?
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Of all the times I've been there, I never saw them use 3 trains. They stacked with 2, how, I don't know. I put most of the blame on the seatbelts. These new trains don't have them, so stacking will be cut in half, if not altogether.
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When it first opened when I went they had all 3 trains running with minimal stacking. I am just curious to see what happens with this.
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I have seen them use three trains at least once. I'm pretty sure they used them at one of the HoliWood Nights ERTs you were at as well, Ack.
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They did not Matt... I've been to 2 of them, neither had 3 trains. Too many brownies maybe?
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Well anyhow, I know for a fact they used all three trains at the inaugural HoliWood Nights for at least one of the two nights. I remember saying at the event that they'll never be able to run all three as slow as they were dispatching two. And then I was flabbergasted that night to see all three on for ERT. Even with expert riders, they stacked for about 30 seconds on each cycle. Seat belts (and loose articles) kill capacity!
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Be careful there. Next thing you know, you will be providing ample justification for $1 lockers at the beginning of each queue for loose articles. Just for capacity, you know...
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...and security of possessions.
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Fine by me. I don't bring lose articles with me.
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OMG I hate it sooooo much when people bring the refilable cup and get all worked about it when they learn they can not leave it on the other side!
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Why can't all train dispatch like phoenix train. lol
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Well, Knoebels doesn't make you empty your pockets before getting on and they don't believe in seat belts either and they have buzzbars on the Phoenix so they only have to check one side of the train. And they don't make you wait behind the air gates until the exit platform is cleared. Instead they dispatch the train while people are still leaving the exit platform. 25 seconds is about the average turnaround between the train arriving and dispatching again. Go Knoebels!
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I Wonder how PTC is taking all this.
They are known to advertise their trains on the #1 Voyage.
I would think these trains make the coaster more re-ridable (if that's a word) ?
But if the dispatch is faster these may also help in other parks.
If it can make it there (The Voyage) it can make it anywhere.
I for one like aggressive coasters with alot of padding (THe Coney Island Cyclone) makes it more fun, softer landing when getting bounced around.
Like riding a wild sofa LOL :D
HHmm until reports come in who knows
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IMO, the stock PTC's with soft seat dividers and no headrests are among the comfiest trains around and don't need anymore padding. For some reason the corporate parks over time replace the plush padding with thick, hard foam rubber that makes it harder to fit in the seat and makes it less comfortable.
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Well, Knoebels doesn't make you empty your pockets before getting on and they don't believe in seat belts either and they have buzzbars on the Phoenix so they only have to check one side of the train. And they don't make you wait behind the air gates until the exit platform is cleared. Instead they dispatch the train while people are still leaving the exit platform. 25 seconds is about the average turnaround between the train arriving and dispatching again. Go Knoebels!
My question was rhetorical. But however that answer was correct especially the "go knoebles" part. Ever notice the we <3 roller coasters sign by the mic on phoenix. The first thing I noticed when I sat down for my first ride. I've since realized how fitting that sticker is.
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^^ IMO the only company crossing its fingers here is GG. If these trains arn't better they are getting switched back to PTC for 2011. How's that going to look? Timberliners extinct before they even started. I would have liked to have seen them tested on a lower profile ride. Boardwalk Bullet perhaps. They must be confident in the product.
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Uhhh....they were tested. On Raven. Earlier this summer. Both Will Koch and Gravity Group were well pleased. If that were not the case, there would be no change to Voyage to be announced at this time...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLO0WAlJDtI#noexternalembed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLO0WAlJDtI#noexternalembed)
Looks pretty good to me..
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Perhaps tested was the wrong word. I meant to be used full time going forward. Not a trial run.
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^ HARD core answer Matt
Best post on the entire board!
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My HARD core answer or his HARD core reply? ;)
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Reply.
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The answer and the reply are like PB & J.
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with wheat or rye?
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I sense a walloping a'comin'!
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Didnt we just have a whole thing on not to do three word posts?!!!
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Why would you say that Matt?
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Didnt we just have a whole thing on not to do three word posts?!!!
That's why. I enjoy the off-topic banter, but the big dogs want to keep this forum on topic and free of unnecessary posts.
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with wheat or rye?
Like that one?
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Yeah, My bad. I still think there are some positives with the new trains, but I hope the smoothness doesn't affect the ride much(or at all).
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PB & J on flax seed bread is my favourite pre-voyage snack.
In all seriousness I'm making my voyage debut June 4th 2010. I'm sure some of you will be there too. Back on topic, disaster adverted.
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^^
Didnt we just have a whole thing on not to do three word posts?!!!
That's why. I enjoy the off-topic banter, but the big dogs want to keep this forum on topic and free of unnecessary posts.
oh snap you're right my spunk count just got reset! OUCH!!!!
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Sometimes off-topic is on-topic...in context...and moderation Carry on! :)
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here is a video of the New trains from IAAPA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0M6z8pSjGQ#noexternalembed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0M6z8pSjGQ#noexternalembed)
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Testing has begun...
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c352/matt515o/Miscellaneous/Voyagetrains.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c352/matt515o/Miscellaneous/VoyageTrains2.jpg)
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c352/matt515o/Miscellaneous/voyagetrains3.jpg)
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when does the park open again?
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The park opened May 1.
With a single PTC train on Voyage. The other has already been shipped to Predator, as I understand it.
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Both of the other trainS (they had three) are at Darien Lake.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs477.snc3/26121_381369144636_9596249636_3498638_6544774_n.jpg)
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So darien is replacing the old PTC trains on Predator?
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Yes. And the old trains should have been replaced long ago, as they have a design defect that was rectified over 15 years ago on other woodies that had the same trains.
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You articulated that very well.
GADVwow, who just HAD two.
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LOL
I wonder how many will get that.
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Those new train look really cool.
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LOL
I wonder how many will get that.
The gravity of it all has been revisited. And the newest Timberliners from that group even steer!
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LOL
I wonder how many will get that.
The gravity of it all has been revisited. And the newest Timberliners from that group even steer!
I'm not sure which one was worse LMAO
All I can say is they better freakin work!
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Not looking good for Timberliners at HoliWood Nights.
The park doesn't expect the trains to be ready until
after Memorial Day. And apparently Will Koch suggested there is only about a 40% chance of the new trains being ready for HoliWood Nights.
I'm really hoping somehow we get to ride one of them and the PTC, but I'm happy for the chance to ride the original Voyage again.
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While I'm happy either way to be there, I'm afraid my bad back may not tolerate more than 1 or 2 rides :(. Bummer.
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I think this is a rope a dope. The trains will be ready ;)
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As long as it is running.
It would be nice to have more than 1 train though.
We will see how my back survives!
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one train.... Im off to Indiana Beach Saturday!!!
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Even with one train, it won't have more than a 15 minute wait during ERT.
Ken, it's really no worse than Boulder Dash (just longer), so I think you will be fine.
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No worries about one train operation. If the Timberliners aren't ready by then. we'll get to ride TWO PTC's! Voyage will soon be sporting a "new" RED train! See the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lpc8L77qkA#noexternalembed&feature=player_embedded# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lpc8L77qkA#noexternalembed&feature=player_embedded#)
HW is taking one of The Raven trains and modifying it to run on The Voyage. To make the controls work right, both trains need to be the same length, so the 7th car of The Voyage's PTC train will be removed and they'll be running two 6-car trains, one red, one blue.
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Nice that HW is so good at keeping fans informed.
Also love that he gets into the technical issues!
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Wow great thinking on Holiday World's part (or if it was a gravity group idea).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Td5csHUgo#noexternalembed&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Td5csHUgo#noexternalembed&feature=player_embedded)
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I hear the main delay is that the Stide gum ad wraps have not arrived for the new Voyage Timberliner trains. Once they arrive they will be good to go.
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Wow it sure sounds like a woodie
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Ahh I get it now... For those that didn't notice, there are only 13 rows of seats (supposed to be 14). They removed the front seat for testing. The first car hold two rows while the rest of the cars are all one row each.
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Red and Blue Voyage trains running today
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I saw six cars crest the lift on the webcam. Couldn't tell which color. I am ready for a red train ride on Voyage!
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Same, according to the Holiday World twitter from today they are running both trains.
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so ther putting RAvens trains on it temparaly? im kind of confused
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There is one red Raven PTC train (6 cars) and one original blue Voyage PTC train (reduced from 7 cars to 6 cars) currently operating on the Voyage. Voyage originally had THREE blue PTC trains, but two of them were sold to Darien Lake. HW kept the third train. Raven doesn't benefit much in gained capacity by running two trains as it's a short ride, but it makes a huge difference on the very, very long Voyage which can run three trains (but rarely did).
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Prediction... 2 PTC on Friday night ERT.... and SURPRISE! 2 Timberliners on Saturday night ERT.... Pipe Dream?? Maybe/More than likely. That would be best case scenario though.
Wrong thread but 13 days!
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I was thinking the same thing, Canada Dude. How awesome would that be?
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(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c352/matt515o/redvoyage.jpg)
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OMG CANNOT WAIT. I was thinking the same thing dkny. That would be an amazing surprise.
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I know someone who rode it this weekend. He said it seemed more rambunctious than he remembered. So I wouldn't worry about the shorter trains hurting the experience. He's even more hard core about violent wood coasters than I am. :)
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I know someone who rode it this weekend. He said it seemed more rambunctious than he remembered. So I wouldn't worry about the shorter trains hurting the experience. He's even more hard core about violent wood coasters than I am. :)
I didn't know those people existed :P
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They live! Be afraid. Be VERY afraid!
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And here I thought I was very quiet about my ride experience last weekend.
GADVwow, huge fan of violent coasters...
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Timberliner testing has reportedly resumed...
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I heard about that while I was in Cedar Point. One of the ride ops said they would be testing the trains before the park opened on certain days.
I personally don't care when they finally use the new trains full-time, I'm not going there anytime soon, they can take as much time as they want.
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Ride op information from Cedar Point?
Sigh.
Someone should tell that ride op that Holiday World is now open weekends only....lots of time for testing...